[desertdude]

Ofcourse nothing new, American politicians bendover backwards for Israel. And again if one can come to terms with the creation of Israel from Jewish terrorism then he or she should have no qualms or bitch about a Palestine being creating from violence aswell.

One mas terrorist is the others freedom fighter. Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, Geroge Washington the IRA ! Depends on which side of the fence you sit on. Once terrorist they became leaders of their countries. Some with violence some through peacefull means.

The Palestenians will not give their land or identity until a soveriegn Palestine comes into existance and as its evidently obvious they will die trying. Its just a matter of time. I for one hope it happens without the poweder keg exploding and is done through peaceful and diplomatic means.

I have never said that the Arab or Palestenians are free from blame, heck personally I don't even like Palesteninas but none of it justifies of how Israel carries on with its occupation, siege and land grab.

And repeating any old rethoric from anyside like Dinejad will wipe Israel off the map just takes it 10 steps back.

[ShepherdsDog]

Israel has about 1.5 million Arab citizens, but somehow I don't think that the Arabs would want 500 000 Jewish 'Palestinians'. The interesting thing is most Israeli Arabs would choose to remain Israeli citizens even when a new Arab state is created in Judea and Samaria.

[FieryVulpine]

eureka eureka:

You do know that Iran is eight times the size of Israel? Israel can no longer wipe anyone off the map. It relies now on nuclear blackmail and US support.

Interesting to see that anti-Islam is starting to creep in.

The reality of the Middle East now is that Israel is lost if it does not soon negotiate in goof faith: stop the settlement and either get the Hell out of Palestinian territory or recognise that the settlers are foreign workers under the control of the host government of Palestine.

Said the man who chooses to bow before the tyrants and the butchers. Classic.

[Bacardi4206]

eureka eureka:

You do know that Iran is eight times the size of Israel? Israel can no longer wipe anyone off the map. It relies now on nuclear blackmail and US support.

Interesting to see that anti-Islam is starting to creep in.

The reality of the Middle East now is that Israel is lost if it does not soon negotiate in goof faith: stop the settlement and either get the Hell out of Palestinian territory or recognise that the settlers are foreign workers under the control of the host government of Palestine.

That's also what people might have said if they looked at the war between Israel and Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq as well as Saudia Arabia giving aid in the form of some of it's military to be placed under Egyptian command. All that verse one nation, one military that was still in it's infancy. Guess who won, give you a hint it wasn't the people with the larger military force. Israel to this day has one of the most technologically advanced and modern military. To say Israel couldn't win a fight is pretty dumb.

Also I find it funny that you go straight for anti-Islamic accusations. Yeah, we are pro-Israel. We must be anti-Islamic gimme a break.

[Thanos]

The eventual fate of Iran and it's chickenshit fourth-rate military is going to be absolutely hilarious to behold one day. They might actually end up taking the Biggest Paper Tiger Of All-Time Award away from France circa 1939-40.

[eureka]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

eureka eureka:

You do know that Iran is eight times the size of Israel? Israel can no longer wipe anyone off the map. It relies now on nuclear blackmail and US support.

Interesting to see that anti-Islam is starting to creep in.

The reality of the Middle East now is that Israel is lost if it does not soon negotiate in goof faith: stop the settlement and either get the Hell out of Palestinian territory or recognise that the settlers are foreign workers under the control of the host government of Palestine.

That's also what people might have said if they looked at the war between Israel and Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq as well as Saudia Arabia giving aid in the form of some of it's military to be placed under Egyptian command. All that verse one nation, one military that was still in it's infancy. Guess who won, give you a hint it wasn't the people with the larger military force. Israel to this day has one of the most technologically advanced and modern military. To say Israel couldn't win a fight is pretty dumb.

Also I find it funny that you go straight for anti-Islamic accusations. Yeah, we are pro-Israel. We must be anti-Islamic gimme a break.

The Arab countries were completely disorganized at that time. They are less so now.

Also, Israel had a huge strategic advantage and weapons superiority,

If Israel should invade Iran or any of the larger countries it would not have that strategic advantage and some Arab countries have advanced armaments now.

I doubt very much that they could win a major fight now other than defending its own territory by staying in that territory.

As for the anti-Islam content read a few of the preceding posts.

[Bacardi4206]

desertdude desertdude:

And Barcadi you made some very valid points that I agree with but when you said the blockade is legal all of that went down the drain.

Than tell me why it's not legal because according to EVERYBODY else in the world it's completely legal. The UN can't find a reason to get them to lift it. No country leader's sought to life it, Israel even has lawyers backing the legal claim about it. There isn't anybody that can provide cold hard facts of it being illegal. Except accusations that it was starving Gaza citizens which were proven more than false.

Let me tell you why this blockade is in place, there is this group you see. They call themselves Hamas, they state they are fighting for Palestinian rights but they do this as they launch attacks into Israel knowing full well Israel will retaliate. They launch these attacks from civilian sectors making sure if Israel retaliated, they would do so by killing some civilians in the process (gotta give Hamas credit, they sure can jerk some PR points). Hamas this "freedom fighter" group who targets civilians and talks about destroying Israel and killing Jews has this habbit of getting weapons from other countries, usually generously donated by Arab nations.

All of this transported by sea, so Israel setup this blockade that allowed every shipment to go to it's destination but only through a Israel port first where the contents can be checked for weapons, ammo and anything else that can be used against Israel. Which has happens dozens of the time in the past where somebody used aid ships and flotilas to smuggle weapons in for hamas. They even caught advanced weapons such as Anti-air missles. After everything in checked, all the contents are transported to it's destination. So you see, there is nothing wrong going on it. Except people like you only claim it's illegal. Unless of course just because it's Israel doing it, it must be unjust right?

[eureka]

I think the UN is on shaky ground in declaring the blockade legal. Blockades are, in international law, legal, only when the antagonists are in a state of war. Or, when the UN has said that they are necessary to preserve international peace.

Any right of interdiction that might be used as justification - the right that seems to be the basis for arguments that say it is legal, fall flat since they can only apply to weapons being brought into the blockader's territory.

I see the blockades only as further aggression and the act of a self appointed "prison warden."

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

The Arab countries were completely disorganized at that time. They are less so now.

C'mon...the israelis were the disorganized guerillas fighting against Arab armies that had some of the newest and best equipment. I've said it before and I'll say it again. the Arab legion had British officers, so don't try and feed us that bullshit about the big mean jews beating on the poor little arabs riding around on horses and fighting with spears and swords. Just because that line seems plausible to your ears doesn't mean that others aren't going to recognize it for the crock that it is. hell, Syria and Egypt were a unified state from 58 until 61 and they had plenty of Russian 'advisors' and equipment

[Bacardi4206]

eureka eureka:

I think the UN is on shaky ground in declaring the blockade legal. Blockades are, in international law, legal, only when the antagonists are in a state of war. Or, when the UN has said that they are necessary to preserve international peace.

Any right of interdiction that might be used as justification - the right that seems to be the basis for arguments that say it is legal, fall flat since they can only apply to weapons being brought into the blockader's territory.

I see the blockades only as further aggression and the act of a self appointed "prison warden."

You see the blockades as a act of aggression only because it meets your arguement that Israel is abusing Palestinians or whatever you're arguement is. The reality isn't so. The blockade acts as a barrier between weapon smugglers and there destination. There is nothing else going on with it. Gaza get's all shipments that comes to them, expecially aid. It's only screened first for weapons before being sent to it's destination via from the Israel port.

Gaza has other borders which cannot be blockaded by Israel, for instance the Egypt border. If they were in a "prison", I'd fire the fool that designed it as that's in general like only putting up a security fence 3rd of the way through and leaving a big gap that the prisoners can just walk out of. Food for thought.

[andyt]

martin14 martin14:

No, Andy, I'm sure the settlements piss off the Palestinians.


The Israeli army occupied Gaza until 2005. When they left.......

well it's easy to see why they are in no hurry to turn over the West Bank

without a serious deal.



If anyone can show me where the Palestinians are actually serious about peace........

and it takes two to tango.


Arafat died a billionaire.. I'm the current leaders are cashing in as well.

How does removing the settlers amount to turning over the West Bank? As I said, occupy it militarily as long as security of Israel demands it. But having the settlers there to stir up trouble, including killing Palestinians doesn't help Israel negotiate peace. Quite the opposite. The Israelis seem no more interested i peace than you say the Palestinians are. Less so in my eyes.

[martin14]

Yeah, and the Palestinians never kill the settlers.


There were settlements in Gaza, they were taken down, so this
can happen again.

But with Hamas in Gaza, daily rocket attacks,
the Arabs shooting off bs like their 'Peace' plan,
and now with Egypt and Syria having problems of their own, which could very easily
scuttle whatever peace Israel had with these countries ....


Try the reverse.. why would the Israelis be interested in peace at this time ?

[eureka]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

eureka eureka:

I think the UN is on shaky ground in declaring the blockade legal. Blockades are, in international law, legal, only when the antagonists are in a state of war. Or, when the UN has said that they are necessary to preserve international peace.

Any right of interdiction that might be used as justification - the right that seems to be the basis for arguments that say it is legal, fall flat since they can only apply to weapons being brought into the blockader's territory.

I see the blockades only as further aggression and the act of a self appointed "prison warden."

You see the blockades as a act of aggression only because it meets your arguement that Israel is abusing Palestinians or whatever you're arguement is. The reality isn't so. The blockade acts as a barrier between weapon smugglers and there destination. There is nothing else going on with it. Gaza get's all shipments that comes to them, expecially aid. It's only screened first for weapons before being sent to it's destination via from the Israel port.

Gaza has other borders which cannot be blockaded by Israel, for instance the Egypt border. If they were in a "prison", I'd fire the fool that designed it as that's in general like only putting up a security fence 3rd of the way through and leaving a big gap that the prisoners can just walk out of. Food for thought.

And you see them as not being aggressive because it suits your argument. However, I say that you are wrong. Israel has no legal grounds for blockading. Refer to my post on that and show me where it is in error.

Also, the Egyptian border is effectively sealed with the agreements between Egypt and Israel. Egypt does not want hundreds of thousands of Palestinians flooding in, either.

The Gaza residents are living in Third World conditions imposed on them by the Israelis.

[Zipperfish]

I don't get the national interest here, from Baird's point of view. Is it just going after Jewish and Christian evangelical votes? Or is it the Conservatives skewing to their more neo-conervative ideological views? I can live with the Conservatives until they trod into foreign policy like a bull in a CHina shop. No fucking clue.

[bootlegga]

desertdude desertdude:

Yes I can see how they hold 80% of the land

Nice map - ever notice how the dates on it coincide with wars the Arabs started to wipe Israel out.

While I sympathize with the Palestinians and their plight, the fact is that they (and the rest of the Arab world) started a couple of wars with Israel, and lost that territory mostly as a consequence of said wars. Israel has even returned other territory it gained in conflict, like the entire Sinai peninsula.

Had the Arabs really wanted to help the Palestinians out, they could easily have ceded some land to them to settle. Instead, they used them as a PR tool to point to the world at how bad Israel is.

I don't agree with Israel authorizing these new settlements, but I also think that the problem could have been solved decades ago if the Arabs didn't want to see Israel wiped off the map.