[desertdude]

That map and many similar are available on a lot of websites even a few pro Israeli sites making all sorts of excuses to justify it, such as that it never belonged to the palestenians in the first place, but never totaly denying it as false.

Here is another from the BBC.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11968304

That little shred of land is supposed to be Palestine in its entirety ( excluding the Gaza strip which is smaller ) and majority of this the Palestenians can't access or arn't allowed to enter, littered with Jewish settelemts deep inside it and more land gets stolen on a daily basis, just today 1100 more settlement homes were approved.

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

There was a two state solution in the Mandate.... Jordan for the Arabs and Israel for the Jews. The Arabs were originally given 85% of the territory and the Jews took 15 %. The Arabs weren't happy with that and tried to make it 0%, so the Jews have now ended up with about 19 - 20 %, while the Arabs still hold 80 %.

Yes I can see how they hold 80% of the land

wow, DD has just secured himself as tinfoil material with that nice website.


It's just funny how 2 minutes on wiki, which the lefties all love, can provide
some reality.


This was the British Mandate:



When you carve it up, the Arabs still hold 80%, as Shep correctly pointed out.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Fair enough. At least the BBC and the Journal are fairly respectable news media.
What was important to me though, was that your first map and the Journal map were missing was the actual source OF the map.
The last one from the BBC sources the map.

[desertdude]

Yes Martin, we see Palestine and Transjordan on that Map, no Israel.

Israel was born out of Western guilt and Jewish terrorism. But of all of this is in the past. Israel exists today and that a fact and ther is no denying it, and so do the Palestenians, just wishing them away wont make them go away and also have a right to a state of their own.

Israel just talks peace while it steals more land away on a daily basis of what ever little land is left. I will be the first one to agree that it was stupid for the Arabs to go to war after indepence and they have paid a heavy price for it and they learnt their lesson.

As said before it is in the past. Today is what everyone needs to focus on and today the ground relality is that Israel militarily occupies palestenian land and keep stealing more and that countries like Canada and the US support this military occupation and deny the right of Palestenian existance.

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

I will be the first one to agree that it was stupid for the Arabs to go to war after indepence and they have paid a heavy price for it and they learnt their lesson.

I don't think the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and some 20 other terrorist groups have, and therein lies the problem.


The Palestinians need to stop shooting and cut a deal.



Settlements were taken down in Gaza before 2005, so this is not an issue.


But every day they delay, the Wall keeps going up, and the new defacto borders
will be of Israel's choosing, and Israel only.

Bad deal all around.

[desertdude]

The days of using Hamas and hezboallah as a crutch to continue the and justify the military occupation and the land grab are long gone.

The problem lies with denying the palestenians a state, continuing the land grab and military occupation, keeping Gazza an open air prison.

Once you settle all these issues, then Hamas, hezbollah or anyother have no teeth left to chew and no one would utter a peep if Israel went after them, infact it would then make the arabs and Iran look bad if they didnt themselves or atleast assist.

You would also take out the wind out Al Qaeda and its cronies where on their main battle cries is Zionism and the occupation of Palestine. The end of this conflict will resonate globally

Arabs and all its neighbours are willing to recognise and restore all normal contacts with Israel, which will also benefit it a great deal istead of living isolated and mostly on donations.

[sandorski]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

sandorski sandorski:

My Peace Plan

In 1 Year the land, Israel and Disputed territories, will be rendered inhospitable due to Radioactive Contamination for an estimated 3 Centuries. Assuming they evacuated, the Descendants who return to reclaim the Land will be the rightful Citizens of it.

Your plan won't happen because the Shin Bet will kill you in your sleep first.

nope, sorry...clocks ticking

[andyt]

desertdude desertdude:

The days of using Hamas and hezboallah as a crutch to continue the and justify the military occupation and the land grab are long gone.

The problem lies with denying the palestenians a state, continuing the land grab and military occupation, keeping Gazza an open air prison.

Once you settle all these issues, then Hamas, hezbollah or anyother have no teeth left to chew and no one would utter a peep if Israel went after them, infact it would then make the arabs and Iran look bad if they didnt themselves or atleast assist.

You would also take out the wind out Al Qaeda and its cronies where on their main battle cries is Zionism and the occupation of Palestine. The end of this conflict will resonate globally

Arabs and all its neighbours are willing to recognise and restore all normal contacts with Israel, which will also benefit it a great deal istead of living isolated and mostly on donations.

Word.

But I think Abbas and the boys have pressure on them not to settle either, by Hamas and their sympathizers. While I think Israel should dismantle the settlements, I'm not sure if that would immediately result in the Palestinians willing to settle. Especially with the problem of East Jerusalem.

I mostly agree, but I think Abbas and the boys have pressure on them not to settle eitherm,

[martin14]

DD, you are wrong.

Hamas is the exact reason for Israel to not withdraw from the West Bank.. yet.

Look what happened in Gaza. How can you prove to anyone the same thing
wouldn't happen in the West Bank ?

Gaza isnt a prison the border with Egypt is open.

It's Hamas trying to keep Gaza as a prison so they can cry and wail and continue
launching rockets into Israel.


And let's not forget Hamas is the democratically elected government

of Gaza, not a splinter group.

[andyt]

martin14 martin14:

DD, you are wrong.

Hamas is the exact reason for Israel to not withdraw from the West Bank.. yet.

Look what happened in Gaza. How can you prove to anyone the same thing
wouldn't happen in the West Bank ?

Gaza isnt a prison the border with Egypt is open.

It's Hamas trying to keep Gaza as a prison so they can cry and wail and continue
launching rockets into Israel.


And let's not forget Hamas is the democratically elected government

of Gaza, not a splinter group.

Are you saying it's the Jewish settlements in the West Bank that keep it from becoming like Gaza? They're a moderating influence on the Palestinians? Let the Israeli army occupy the West Bank until there's peace, by all means. But the settlements just show that Israel isn't serious about any peace that actually leaves the Palestinians a functioning state.

[martin14]

No, Andy, I'm sure the settlements piss off the Palestinians.


The Israeli army occupied Gaza until 2005. When they left.......

well it's easy to see why they are in no hurry to turn over the West Bank

without a serious deal.



If anyone can show me where the Palestinians are actually serious about peace........

and it takes two to tango.


Arafat died a billionaire.. I'm the current leaders are cashing in as well.

[eureka]

Gaza most emphatically does not have an open border with Egypt, It has no border that its inhabitants can cross anywhere. Its land borders are controlled either by Israel direct or by Israel's agreements with Egypt. Its coastal borders are blockaded by Israel.

Gaza is indeed the world's largest prison. 1.4 million people are kept in confinement and have been for more than generation. It is the UN's greatest shame that it has bowed to America's domestic wishes for so long. Wishes that are entirely dependent on domestic American voting and funding of politicians.

Time for the world to wake up.

Actually, it may have done so. Turkey may yet decide that iy will not tolerate Israeli aggression in the region.

[mhikl]

[quote="martin14”]. . . .If anyone can show me where the Palestinians are actually serious about peace........

and it takes two to tango.[/quote]

If anyone can show me where Isreal is actually serious about peace . . .

Yes, it takes 2 to tango.

Yet it doesn’t seem to be in the interest of Israel to desire peace. A few dead Jews here a lot more Palestinians there, all for the sake of land grab.

Does anyone honestly believe Israel has any intention of returning any of the stolen land back? You don’t build settlement communities with the intent to dismantle them, ever. The UN says Israeli settlements constitutes violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. But Israel continues to dispute the international community.

Meanwhile, Palestinians have no future. Old people may give up, but those with children cannot; if not for themselves, at least for the children there must be a future. Ignoring this truth goes against the nature of any man if he looks inside his soul, honestly.

The history and pain doesn’t make for cheerful feelings between the neighbours but many in the Middle East, both Arab and Israeli citizens are now willing to talk but Israel shows no willingness to negotiate.

[desertdude]

Israelis refuse to even come to the negotiating table unless its on their terms, even when offered massive bribes. The Arab peace plan sits there signed by everyone including Hamas except Israel. All the while it commits war crimes and militarily occupies land and enforces a siege on Gazza and its the Palestenians that arn't serious about peace ?

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

Israelis refuse to even come to the negotiating table unless its on their terms, even when offered massive bribes. The Arab peace plan sits there signed by everyone including Hamas except Israel. All the while it commits war crimes and militarily occupies land and enforces a siege on Gazza and its the Palestenians that arn't serious about peace ?

It's easy for the Arabs to make their own peace plan..

pre '67 borders,
right of return,
and Jerusalem.

All of these things, aren't going to happen.



Just try to remember who keeps losing the wars.....


p.s. Hamas didnt sign in 2007, they abstained.
And the things that have happened in Gaza do not happen in a vacuum.


This is on the same level as North Korea offering peace to the South
if only they would accept being ruled from Pyongyang.