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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:06 am
 


Yea, except this little country wasn't a dictatorship that refused to abide by international law, oh and the Russian invasion wasn't sanctioned by the United Nations, oh and the Russians didn't have 17 other nations helping them, oh and Georgia hasn't invaded any of its neighbours, oh and Georgia wasn't run by a party that modelled itself on the Nazi party, shall I go on?
Another apologist for the Russians.
Wow!
You Putin fans love to try and simplify this eh?
Pity the Europeans and the former Soviet Slave states don’t agree with your comfortably numb lefty attitude, dispensed from the safety of cushy Canada.
Ever been to a country that has Russian military ‘assistance’? I spent a year in Ethiopia with our Russian chums. Great guys with AK47’s.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:17 am
 


$1:
Yea, except this little country wasn't a dictatorship that refused to abide by international law, oh and the Russian invasion wasn't sanctioned by the United Nations, oh and the Russians didn't have 17 other nations helping them, oh and Georgia hasn't invaded any of its neighbours, oh and Georgia wasn't run by a party that modelled itself on the Nazi party, shall I go on?
Another apologist for the Russians.
Wow!
You Putin fans love to try and simplify this eh?
Pity the Europeans and the former Soviet Slave states don’t agree with your comfortably numb lefty attitude, dispensed from the safety of cushy Canada.
Ever been to a country that has Russian military ‘assistance’? I spent a year in Ethiopia with our Russian chums. Great guys with AK47’s.


Oh bullshit!

Please, please, please, do yourself a favour. Read a recent history of Georgia, read what platform Mr. Mikheil Saakashvili “won” an election campaign. Read about unlawful seizure of power. Georgia is as much a democracy, as Russia is. Read how Georgian troops marched into S. Ossetia and themselves burned and pillaged. Do you know why NATO stopped Georgia from joining, they smelt the trouble from the distance like a bad stench of crap. The idiot used the Olympics to invade thinking it would not get any attention.

17 countries helped the USA ruin Iraq, well, does that make 17 countries right?

I’m not a Putin lover/Russian apologist. I just find it hypocritical of Bush to dictate what is and isn’t an appropriate use of force in the 21st century. Russia is a bully no doubt about it, so is America though. Russians are no strangers to death. They’re used to it. The stench of death has been in Russia since the beginning of the Bolshevik revolution. Impunity is the name of the game. America has learned well.

And one final question, was the American invasion of Iraq sanctioned?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:23 am
 


I do love a good nuclear explosion.


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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:51 am
 


The Georgian PM is a plonker.
But that aside, Russia has been flexing its new found petro-muscles quite a lot recently. Putin’s Russia is looking very pre Gorbachev at the moment.

On the UN thing, Resolution 2002-1441.
This resolution can be debated either way but Saddam was told and he failed to comply, hence the US invasion. Remember he was quite apt to invade places like Kuwait and Iran. The guy was a threat that was taken out. Should we have waited until he nuked say Israel?

And the stench of death well preceded the Russian Revolution. There has been centuries of this shite coming from the Russians. Putin is no different than the averagely nasty tsar.

Whether you agree with the invasion of Iraq or not ( and I'm to and fro on whether this was the right thing to do) the Russians are becoming a threat to the democracies that border them. I don't want to see the likes of Hitler invading the Sudetenland to protect 'German citizens' which is absolutely what happened here.
There are many worrying parallels to Europe in the mid 1930's here.

As far as I'm concerned, forget Iran. Russia is the real threat to world peace.

But I am quite impressed with your grasp of this subject Mr Sock, and you do raise good points. I just don't agree with you.


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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:58 am
 


yep, lots of ethnic Russians in the Baltic states, as much as 35% in some places.
eastern half of Ukraine is very pro-Russia as well, and there is this constant stink with the Russian Navy around Sevastopol.

this thing in Georgia predates Gorbi or even Stalin for that matter, this
is just the most recent chapter.

But there no doubt the Russians are happy to flex their muscles again,
and with the money to back it up, it is becoming a problem. Any victory for Russia
is a bad thing, imo. They still have not left Georgia......


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:46 am
 


Russia doesn’t do things by the book. The Russians have a tendency to throw the book in the faces of those who preach logic. Victory for Russia is bad, but again, who are the Americans to criticize. They have been so hypocritical over the last, oh, some, 50 years. I just don’t think America is right to handle the issue. And they are partially responsible by setting a bad example briefly as the world’s only superpower. If America had been true to her principles things would have been easier now. Russia saw a window of opportunity and took it. And they will take their opportunities far more often now that America has weakened itself through G.W. Bush’s policies of blind aggression and “pre-emptive” strikes.

Currently there is a meeting by NATO called on by the US in Brussels to review the situation in Georgia. Russia will destroy all Georgian military equipment, they will rob Georgian civilians of their valuables, and they will probably rape a few women, and withdraw before NATO pretends to be firm with them. It will end without a squeak from Western Europe because they are reluctant to upset Russia. If America had not been so hypocritical with past policies, (not just Iraq) they would have been able to stand against the Russians as a beacon of reason.

That being said, we have to stand by America as much as I despise it (its neo-conservative foreign policies to be precise). We have to stand by them because ultimately, while led by partly racist partly neocon policies they are still a generally free-ish. I can show my discontent against the US or Canadian or all western governments by printing shirts, talking shit, writing shit in blogs, and the list goes on. With Russia or China, even Georgia for that matter, I get to scratch my discontent with the government on the inside of my prison cell, or shall I call it re-education.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:27 am
 


Russia's first Georgia move legitimate: U.S. envoy ~Globe & Mail [1]

Ambassador: US warned Georgia about invasion ~International Herald Tribune [2]


$1:
MOSCOW — The U.S. ambassador to Moscow, in a rare U.S. comment endorsing Russia's initial moves in Georgia, described the Kremlin's first military response as legitimate after Russian troops came under attack.

U.S officials, including President George W. Bush, have strongly criticized Moscow's subsequent action but have not focused on the initial chain of events that triggered the conflict between Russian and U.S.-ally Georgia.

The war broke out after Georgia tried to retake its Moscow-backed breakaway region of South Ossetia, prompting a counter-attack by Russian forces.


Kommersant interview with US Ambassador John Beyrle: [3][4]
$1:
Kommersant: None of the first persons like U.S. President Bush and Secretary of State Rice has never criticized the shelling of Tskhinvali. Does this mean that the U.S. supports such actions?

Beyrle: The fact that we are very strongly convinced the Georgian side not taking that step, clearly said that we did not want all this to happen. For many years we, along with Russia were involved in all kinds of international mechanisms like the Group of Friends of Georgia Terry UN to resolve these frozen conflicts on Georgian territory. And we did not want the transition to violence and the use of force - that the U.S. position clearly marked. We see that Russian troops quite rightly responded to the attack on Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. But now these forces moved on Georgian soil, and territorial integrity of Georgia was under threat.

Original
— Никто из первых лиц США вроде президента Буша и госсекретаря Райс никогда не критиковал обстрел Цхинвали. Означает ли это, что США поддерживают подобные действия?

— Тот факт, что мы очень настойчиво убеждали грузинскую сторону не идти на этот шаг, ясно говорит о том, что мы не хотели, чтобы все это произошло. Многие годы мы вместе с Россией были вовлечены во всевозможные международные механизмы вроде группы друзей генсека ООН по Грузии по разрешению этих замороженных конфликтов на грузинской территории. И мы не хотели перехода к насилию и использованию силы — эту позицию США четко обозначили. Мы видим, что российские войска вполне обоснованно ответили на нападение на миротворцев РФ в Южной Осетии. Но теперь эти силы перешли на грузинскую землю, и территориальная целостность Грузии оказалась под угрозой.



South Ossetia: A Monumental Miscalculation [5]
By Gwynne Dyer
$1:
The three-day war in South Ossetia is settled, and the Georgians
have lost. There may be some more shooting yet, but it is now clear that
Georgia will never regain control of the rebel territories of South Ossetia
and Abkhazia, that President Mikhail Saakashvili has handed Russia a major
victory, and that Georgia's hopes of joining NATO are gone. Pretty
impressive work for one long weekend.

Now Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the
Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is
doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole
world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks
will be able to reach any other European capital." Nonsense. It was Georgia
that started this war.

The chronology tells it all. Skirmishes between Georgian troops and
South Ossetian militia were more frequent than usual over the past several
months, but on the afternoon of Thursday, 7 August, Saakashvili offered the
separatist South Ossetian government "an immediate ceasefire and the
immediate beginning of talks," promising that "full autonomy" was on the
table. The same evening, however, he ordered a general offensive.

South Ossetian's president, Eduard Kokoity, called Saakashvili's
ceasefire offer a "despicable and treacherous" ruse, which seems fair
enough. Through all of Thursday night and Friday morning Georgian artillery
shells and rockets rained down on the little city of Tskhinvali, South
Ossetia's capital, while Georgian infantry and tanks encircled it. Russian
journalists reported that 70 percent of the city was destroyed, and by
Friday afternoon it was in Georgian hands.

It was obvious that this offensive had been planned well in
advance, but this, it appears, was as far as Saakashvili's plan extended.
He assumed that the world's attention would be distracted by the opening of
the Olympics, and that the Russian reaction would be slow because Prime
Minister Vladimir Putin was off in Beijing.



1. Russia's first Georgia move legitimate: U.S. envoy
2. Ambassador: US warned Georgia about invasion
3. Google Translation of Kommersant Interview
4. Мы до последнего убеждали Грузию не делать этого
5. South Ossetia: A Monumental Miscalculation


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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:00 am
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Yea, except this little country wasn't a dictatorship that refused to abide by international law, oh and the Russian invasion wasn't sanctioned by the United Nations, oh and the Russians didn't have 17 other nations helping them, oh and Georgia hasn't invaded any of its neighbours, oh and Georgia wasn't run by a party that modelled itself on the Nazi party, shall I go on?
Another apologist for the Russians.
Wow!
You Putin fans love to try and simplify this eh?
Pity the Europeans and the former Soviet Slave states don’t agree with your comfortably numb lefty attitude, dispensed from the safety of cushy Canada.
Ever been to a country that has Russian military ‘assistance’? I spent a year in Ethiopia with our Russian chums. Great guys with AK47’s.


The American invasion and occupation of Iraq was not sanctioned by the United Nations. The leader of the UN at the time called the invasion "illegal." The war in Iraq has claimed somewhere between one hundred thousand and one million lives, a large fraction of which was civilians. The invasion of Georgia proper has claimed anywhere from dozens to a few thousand lives. The invasion of Iraq was predicated on an imminent threat to the US that never existed; the invasion of Georgia was (based on what we know at this point) was based on Russian peacekeepers being killed by Georgian forces. Last I heard the Russians were not building military bases in Georgia.

Apart from rank ideology, you--and other neo-conservatvies--really don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to trying to justify one invasion over the other. The moral outrage sounds pretty hollow, considering the stuff the US has been up to the last eight years.

This is a power play. The US just lost a pawn, for the time being anyways. The White House is playing poker while the Kremlin is playing chess. Hopefully McCain's or Obama's game is better.


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