[Deiwos]

Erased to correct an error made while learning to use the forum.

[Blue_Nose]

Blah blah blah, commanderkai.

The program has had nothing but positive results, and you've done nothing to counter that point, unless you can come up with something better than "who cares, they're just addicts."

[Deiwos]

I am glad to see that someone stood behind that site. From what I read there, there are well over 25 reports on the effectiveness, cost effectiveness, and effects of the site, even one commissioned by the Conservative government itself, that say that it should very much be there. Sure, when there are no or few facts about something, I can understand making a decision I find silly. When you have to blind fold yourself to hide from the facts, just so you can go directly against said facts, I worry dearly that this country is run by people who need to take off their business jackets and put on straight jackets.

[ridenrain]

Wow. hard sell job or what.

[romanP]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

Ah, I forgot all about the "ringing bell for the rest of the community" standard for determining who should have access to health facilities.

We could just arrest anybody who goes in there and toss them in jail...they are still committing crimes, no?

What good would that do? It serves no purpose other than to make yourself happy, and doesn't help anyone.

$1:

"Insite has not led to an increase in drug-related crime, rates of arrest for drug trafficking, assaults and robbery were similar after the facility’s opening, and rates of vehicle break-ins/theft declined significantly. (Substance Abuse Treatment, Prevention, and Policy)"

So outside for car theft, which can be completely unrelated, it has had no effect on public safety? That's a positive endorsement?

You would rather that nothing is done and the situation gets worse?

$1:

"Insite has reduced the number of people injecting in public and the amount of injection-related litter in the downtown eastside. (Canadian Medical Association Journal)"

So is this why you use this one to help support your argument? Because it elicits the sympathies of the average poster. I'll admit, that most people don't. That I honestly don't care if a heroin addict dies from an overdose. Heartless sure, but I'm alot more sympathetic to a child getting HIV because some heroin addict left a needle in a playground.

Heroin addicts are more likely to leave needles in playgrounds without this sort of clinic. Did you completely miss that part?

$1:

Of course, I'm sure I will get flak for that, but as much as alot of you might get some "holier than thou" attitude, its the truth, and I'm sure alot more people will care about the wellbeing of a 2 year old than a heroin addict.

Is a heroin addict, especially one that wants to recover from his or her addiction, less of a human being than a 2-year old?

$1:

"Insite has reduced overall rates of needle sharing in the community, and among those who used the supervised injection site for some, most or all of their injections, 70% were less likely to report syringe sharing."

To be honest, that should be 100% since its FREE.

The other 30% could possibly be mentally ill or afraid that going to the clinic will get them arrested instead of helping them, or are just simply not interested in help, or are unaware of the clinic.

$1:

But whatever, its nice knowing that they're able to slowly kill themselves from heroin addiction instead of AIDS or a much faster death of ODing.

I really wish that being a selfish asshole was as deadly as a heroin habit can be.

$1:

"Insite is attracting the highest-risk users – those more likely to be vulnerable to HIV infection and overdose, and who were contributing to problems of public drug use and unsafe syringe disposal."

Which is nice and all, but are those highest risk users still committing crimes to support the purchasing of heroin? I'll bet you....yes, since it seems that crime rates haven't changed, except for car theft, which has no real link between the two.

If heroin weren't illegal, it would not be a crime to buy it.

$1:

"Nearly one-third of Insite users received information relating to safer injecting practices. Those who received help injecting from fellow injection drug users on the streets were more than twice as likely to have received safer injecting education at Insite."

We're TEACHING them how to inject?

Why not? They're already doing it, might as well teach them how to do it without hurting themself even more. Then they don't end up having to have limbs severed because they injected in the same spot too many times until it turned gangrenous.

$1:

"Insite is not increasing rates of relapse among former drug users, nor is it a negative influence on those seeking to stop drug use."

That is not a ringing endorsement either. At all. Actually its saying that it's doing NOTHING.

You need to learn some reading comprehension. If former drug users aren't going back to their habit, that means they've recovered. If it is not a negative influence for those who want to stop their drug use, that means they're not being encouraged to keep up their habit. Both of these are good things.

[romanP]

commanderkai commanderkai:

So looking at all the facts. I see the only positive event for the taxpayers in this country and in that city is that....they're less needles along the street, and are more people going into detox. That's it.

That's it?? You don't see drug addicts recovering from their addiction as a positive and effectual use of tax money? You're insane.

$1:

The average Canadian has little sympathy for heroin addicts. So we're paying what a private charity could do instead.

You don't speak for the "average Canadian." You're just a selfish bastard.

$1:

I'm not hateful, I just don't care about the welfare of those who are committing a crime

No, your problem is that you can't tell the difference between a just law and an unjust law because your understanding of law is that things are bad because they're illegal and they're illegal because they're bad. You have no reason behind your argument whatsoever.

$1:

causing damage to the community

So we shouldn't help people to cause less or no damage to their community, which this program has proven it is capable of doing?

$1:

Oh and RomanP, don't be a hypocrite, you did the same thing with uranium mines.

I'm not a hypocrite. A uranium mine is essentially a slow dirty bomb, and it is very difficult, if not impossible to clean up such a mess after the fact, and the toxic effects will last for thousands of years. They poison the food chain of the surrounding area, leading to birth defects, cancer and death of both people and animals. It's not that I just don't want a uranium mine in my back yard, I don't want uranium mines anywhere.

Heroin abuse, on the other hand, is a solveable problem, and this clinic proves it, but you're too selfish to understand why.

[QBall]

Victoria's needle exchange will be closing at the end of the month after the facility was served with eviction papers by the landlord. Nearby business owners complained of homeless addicts loitering outside the facility and leaving behind a trail of dirty syringes, blood and human waste in the vicinity of the exchange and in the doorways of the businesses. Would a full blown shooting gallery have resolved this situation? Unlikely, where are these guys suppose to go after shooting up? They can't stay at the shooting gallery, it's not a shelter. So off they go high as a kite to loiter in the area waiting for the next fix. Meanwhile local businesses and residents are the ones who have to face the aftermath.

[romanP]

More of "not in my back yard." This isn't a problem you can just sweep under the rug and hope it'll go away. If they're not loitering in front of businesses, they'd just end up shooting up in front of businesses. I'm sure that would make the business owners SO much happier!

[Streaker]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

RUEZ RUEZ:

C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:

I know this site has more than its fair share of rednecks and Kanadian Krakkkers...

So you have just over 360 posts and you think you are qualified to make that generalization?

What does post count have to do with the ability to read and comprehend? Nothing. He's right on the money.

I agree. You don't have to spend a lot of time here to figure out that there are a good many knuckle-draggers in our midst.

[QBall]

romanP romanP:

If they're not loitering in front of businesses, they'd just end up shooting up in front of businesses. I'm sure that would make the business owners SO much happier!

They already are:

http://web.bcnewsgroup.com/portals-code ... 643&more=0

$1:

The nearby needle exchange on Cormorant Street attracts a subset of the same clientele and generates similar complaints. Charlotte and Louis Sutker are psychologists who own a century-old house on Amelia Street, around the corner from the needle exchange. They have put up expensive fencing to keep addicts out of their backyard,a high tech gate, and bars on all windows. On top of that, “we’re picking up needles every day,” Charlotte Sutker said.

$1:

Every morning, staff remove needles from the parking lot and drive-thru of the McDonald’s restaurant across the street. Its bushes are used as toilets. The same is true for Speedy Glass next door, and two pay phones on the adjacent sidewalk serve as an illicit drug call centre.

But hey they're only law-abiding, taxpaying NIMBYs, right? They should be honoured to be part of the solution, right?

[romanP]

So what is your solution, then?

[Deiwos]

Increase funding a tad, just enough to supply building space and a washroom, which shouldn't cost too much more than having the building in the first place and employing a bunch of nurses. Also, ensure that the nurses are collecting all the needles before anyone leaves, make it policy that someone sits in a chair, is handed a needle, shoots, and then gives the needle back.

Of course, the words "additional funding" are paramount to "my idea is infeasible", at least under the current government. So, for now, the solution appears to have them shoot up anyway, toss needles everywhere, some get sick, some die, and the rest go to prison where, if they aren't shooting up while imprisoned, they exit and resume doing it. All this because our government believes that they are not worth saving.

The best way to fail is to not try at all, but, how many addicts do you think vote? Not very many, I would imagine, but I would like to hold my government to a higher standard than that. A standard that states that they are the government of the entire nation, not just the people who voted for them.

[C.M. Burns]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

commanderkai commanderkai:

The only positive thing, as Blue nose pointed out, is that needles don't wind up in parks or anywhere else where kids can get them. That's it.

No that's not it at all.

Let me rephrase, its the only thing that I see that actually makes me support it, except maybe the choice of detoxification... The other points that it states don't exactly state a ringing bell for the rest of the community. The car thefts statement can't really be connected to the use of this site.

So saving lives isn't a factor that makes you want to support Insite?

How about saving money?

$1:

Overdoses have been common at insite, with almost 500 occurring over a two-year period, but none resulted in a fatality. In fact, insite staff managed the
majority of overdoses on their own, with only four in 10 needing ambulance support, and fewer than one in 10 resulting in a transfer to hospital.

$1:

Research studies show that people using insite are 70 percent less likely to share syringes than injection drug users who do not use the facility or use it infrequently. And rates of syringe sharing in the community are lower than they were in the past, indicating insite has had an impact on behaviour well beyond the walls of the facility.

For injection drug users, soft tissue infections from injecting is the most frequent reason for hospitalizations, including visits to the emergency department, as well as overnight stays. Many infections are the result
of injecting with unclean equipment, not cleaning the skin first, or using dirty water. One of the services insite offers clients is education on how to safely
inject – with at least one in three people visiting insite receiving this education.

There's more money saved on people who won't need healthcare for the rest of their lives to treat Hepatitis and HIV/AIDS or need expensive rehabilitation and prosthetics to replace an amputated arm.

Or howsabout good ol' redneck public order?

$1:

Prior to insite opening, researchers collected data on how much public injecting was taking place in the neighbourhood. They then collected the same information weeks after insite opened and found that the opening of insite
resulted in substantial reductions in public disorder, including a reduction in the number of people injecting in public and the number of discarded syringes found
on city streets.

Get the facts http://www.vch.ca/sis/

and then get some compassion

[ridenrain]

Compassion for the hand full of addicts or compassion for the rest of the city?

$1:

The minister said Vancouver has the second highest rate of violent and property crimes of any major city in the United States or Canada. “Law-abiding Vancouverites are beginning to see that what has been presented as a ‘victimless crime' I the drug trade - is not victimless at all,” said Mr. Clement.

This isn't working, it's only prolonging the misery of the addicts. It's done nothing to get anyone off drugs, in fact, the opposite is probably more likely.
The other "pillars" have never been started because some folks are making a killing supplying these drugs to these addicts.

[Blue_Nose]

ridenrain ridenrain:

This isn't working, it's only prolonging the misery of the addicts. It's done nothing to get anyone off drugs, in fact, the opposite is probably more likely.

That's true if you ignore the fact that it is working, and is getting people off drugs.