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Posts: 876
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:40 pm
some die from tasers but would you rather them shoot them in the legs?
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:29 am
acidcomplex acidcomplex: how many does it take to die before the cops get charged and these things are taken away. Why i remember back in the day when cops had to use these things called hands and arms.
Maybe its safer for the cops but if you wanted a safe job then you picked the wrong profession Maybe they should just shoot everybody eh?
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:37 am
Yogi Yogi: [quote="Zipperfish"
Making cops safer isn't the only variable in the equation. An important variable, but not the only one. Yes. There is another important variable. That variable being that police are taught that whenever they feel it is necessary enough to draw their firearm to 'go for the body-mass. Shoot to kill'. Lethal force is the officers intention at this point. When employing a taser, it is the officers intention at this point, to subdue the subject without lethal force.[/quote] Yogi, you are wrong. No Police service/force in Canada employs 'shoot to kill'. They shoot to 'stop the threat'. That means once the bad guy ceases to be a threat (drops the gun/knife etc or is shot, wounded) the police stop shooting. 'Shoot to kill' would mean that the police would continue to shoot at a suspect, even though that suspect is no longer a threat, until they are dead. And for all you internet heroes, how would you have handled a drug crazed lunatic who was lashing out wildly? Oh yea, you would tackle him and restrain him eh? That's so easy, I wonder why the veteran cops at the scene didn't think of that? maybe they were just too lazy and decided to taser him instead. Bad, lazy cops. Maybe they should look to these forums and look at these well educated and reasoned posts to further their training in arrest tactics.
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Posts: 21665
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:53 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock: Yogi Yogi: [quote="Zipperfish"
Making cops safer isn't the only variable in the equation. An important variable, but not the only one. Yes. There is another important variable. That variable being that police are taught that whenever they feel it is necessary enough to draw their firearm to 'go for the body-mass. Shoot to kill'. Lethal force is the officers intention at this point. When employing a taser, it is the officers intention at this point, to subdue the subject without lethal force.Yogi, you are wrong. No Police service/force in Canada employs 'shoot to kill'. They shoot to 'stop the threat'. That means once the bad guy ceases to be a threat (drops the gun/knife etc or is shot, wounded) the police stop shooting. 'Shoot to kill' would mean that the police would continue to shoot at a suspect, even though that suspect is no longer a threat, until they are dead. And for all you internet heroes, how would you have handled a drug crazed lunatic who was lashing out wildly? Oh yea, you would tackle him and restrain him eh? That's so easy, I wonder why the veteran cops at the scene didn't think of that? maybe they were just too lazy and decided to taser him instead. Bad, lazy cops. Maybe they should look to these forums and look at these well educated and reasoned posts to further their training in arrest tactics.[/quote] I don't think there's many here who think tasers are used by bad or lazy cops. I think there's a legitimate concern for the number of deaths directly after a taser strike, consdiering they are marketed to teh police and to the public as virtually harmless. That's my general feeling, though I wouldn't presume to speak about this specific case.
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:01 pm
Zip, many cops are asking the same questions. Really the only other way to deal with some situations is to resort to using a firearm. Taser them or shoot them. Both are not great choices that police in Canada have to make on a daily basis. The taser is obviously not perfect. From what I saw on TV this suspect was already exhibiting 'excited deleruim', probably from cocaine use. A very large precentage of deaths that have been linked to taser use involve people high on cocaine or crack. The problem is that somebody who is very violent and high on crack is also a great danger to the public and police trying to arrest them. Until the operational front-line officers get a better tool, tasering is preferable to shooting them. A lot of lives have been saved by police using a taser over a firearm.
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Posts: 21665
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:12 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: Zip, many cops are asking the same questions. Really the only other way to deal with some situations is to resort to using a firearm. Taser them or shoot them. Both are not great choices that police in Canada have to make on a daily basis. The taser is obviously not perfect. From what I saw on TV this suspect was already exhibiting 'excited deleruim', probably from cocaine use. A very large precentage of deaths that have been linked to taser use involve people high on cocaine or crack. The problem is that somebody who is very violent and high on crack is also a great danger to the public and police trying to arrest them. Until the operational front-line officers get a better tool, tasering is preferable to shooting them. A lot of lives have been saved by police using a taser over a firearm. You'll get no argument from me that if it works on a person under the influence of drugs like crack, a taser is a good weapon to use. Other options are to shoot him or take him down. I think we'd both agree that shooting the guy is the least desirable option. Taking him down--well, people forget that there's a lot of people who died in custody after being taken down by the cops even before the taser. Being dog-piled by a number of large gentlemen when your heart rate is around 250 bpm because of massive amounts of coke is probably not the healthiest thing to do. Not to mention it increases the risk of injury to the officer. However, like a lot of Canadians, I was horrified by the Robert Dziekanski case, and I never want to see that happen again. I think something needs to be done to reduce the number of these deaths.
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Posts: 8851
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:18 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: [
Yogi, you are wrong. No Police service/force in Canada employs 'shoot to kill'. They shoot to 'stop the threat'. That means once the bad guy ceases to be a threat (drops the gun/knife etc or is shot, wounded) the police stop shooting. 'Shoot to kill' would mean that the police would continue to shoot at a suspect, even though that suspect is no longer a threat, until they are dead. in arrest tactics. 'In that vein', my terminology was wrong. You are correct in that when there is no longer a threat then 'shooting ceases and weapons are holstered'. Police are trained to 'go for body mass' which more often than not results in the death of the one who gets shot. At the point of drawing their weapon, the officer must have determined that 'life' is in danger. Quite often these decisions have to be made in seconds. There is little room for error on the officers part. No officer wants to shoot anyone, but when the critical moment arrives, the officers thoughts lean towards, 'if he dies, he dies. Better him than me'! Oh! "And where do I get my info from", you ask? I have an 'in-law' who himself has gone through ALL the training of a city police service and then was severely injured when two guys jumped him and he ended up with career-ending injuries. As well, all of his brothers, four uncles and both grandfathers served on various forces, both city and RCMP.
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:26 pm
So no first hand knowledge then yogi? Thought not.
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Posts: 8851
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:35 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: So no first hand knowledge then yogi? Thought not. The only first-hand experience that I have had in a similar situation is actually looking down the barrel from the wrong end!At that point in time I had no doubt that the officer meant business. In the following melee, when we got into 'close contact" I still managed to get my skull brokenwith a baton! And what first handknowledge do you have in such matters, that makes you an authority???
Last edited by Yogi on Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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acidcomplex
Forum Elite
Posts: 1453
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:36 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: acidcomplex acidcomplex: how many does it take to die before the cops get charged and these things are taken away. Why i remember back in the day when cops had to use these things called hands and arms.
Maybe its safer for the cops but if you wanted a safe job then you picked the wrong profession Maybe they should just shoot everybody eh? well everbody who breaks the law sure lol. I dont know how else to say "You lose your rights to certain things when you commit a crime". If you (the perp) doesnt have the decency to respect the rules then why should i (the cop) respect your wish of not getting shot?.
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:49 pm
Yogi Yogi: EyeBrock EyeBrock: So no first hand knowledge then yogi? Thought not. The only first-hand experience that I have had in a similar situation is actually looking down the barrel from the wrong end!At that point in time I had no doubt that the officer meant business. In the following melee, when we got into 'close contact" I still managed to get my skull brokenwith a baton! And what first handknowledge do you have in such matters, that makes you an authority??? 17 years in Policing.
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Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:57 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: Yogi Yogi: EyeBrock EyeBrock: So no first hand knowledge then yogi? Thought not. The only first-hand experience that I have had in a similar situation is actually looking down the barrel from the wrong end!At that point in time I had no doubt that the officer meant business. In the following melee, when we got into 'close contact" I still managed to get my skull brokenwith a baton! And what first handknowledge do you have in such matters, that makes you an authority??? 17 years in Policing. Haha. Greatest response ever.
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Posts: 15681
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:20 pm
Well, its all getting very silly isn't it Tricks?
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acidcomplex
Forum Elite
Posts: 1453
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:26 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: A very large precentage of deaths that have been linked to taser use involve people high on cocaine or crack.
Proof?
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roger-roger
CKA Super Elite
Posts: 5164
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:37 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock: Yogi Yogi: EyeBrock EyeBrock: So no first hand knowledge then yogi? Thought not. The only first-hand experience that I have had in a similar situation is actually looking down the barrel from the wrong end!At that point in time I had no doubt that the officer meant business. In the following melee, when we got into 'close contact" I still managed to get my skull brokenwith a baton! And what first handknowledge do you have in such matters, that makes you an authority??? 17 years in Policing. Fucking Epic! ![Beers [BB]](./images/smilies/beers.gif)
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