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Posts: 533
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:44 pm
If it were just 2 cents off a liter, that amount would add up very quick. Money left in the pocket is ok with me.
I'd rather not be charged more taxes on everything like Dion wants from us.
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Posts: 12398
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:50 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair: Most of the prices went up by the same amount as the GST came down. If the Conservatives win, they'll make a big announcement and the price of diesel will drop two cents. Within a week, it will go back up and the saving will be lost. It amounts to nothing in savings for the consumer.
This whole thing looks like it was written on the back of a napkin though. The Conservatives didn't get the bump they were hoping for and were off to a rough start, so they came out with what amounts to a cheap political stunt.
Of course the story was mostly lost because of the crass graphics on the Conservative website, so even the stunt fell flat. You seem to be missing the point. Dion's plan says tax hike...Harper says tax cut. Those two little words will have an impact on voters.
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Reverend Blair
Forum Super Elite
Posts: 2043
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:18 pm
Dion's plan says tax replacement. He'll cut income taxes, then bring in a carbon tax. The plan is for it to be revenue neutral and most indications are that it will be. Dion's plan includes helping those affected...farmers, fishers, truckers...buy more efficient technology to help defray the costs of rising energy.
You guys should try being honest for a change.
I don't think it will reduce emissions, so I don't support it, but economists have been saying that we need to move in that direction for quite a while, and if nothing else it will give me a chance to control the amount of taxes that I pay.
Harper's tax cut is two cents off a litre of diesel, but the cut is spread out over a couple of years. So he'd knock off a penny the first year, no doubt with some huge photo-op, and the savings would be taken away by the oil companies within a week. He'd repeat that same thing the next year. Wow.
Of course diesel has gone up 40 cents a litre in 2008, so even if the oil companies didn't decide to steal that penny back, the savings would be miniscule. It was what, three weeks ago that Harper made that exact same point?
This is one of those back of the napkin policies that the Conservatives thought up because they weren't getting the traction they wanted. They were, and still are, being criticized for breaking their own law. Nobody was buying the Uncle Fuzzy commercials, especially since they were so closely followed by attack ads. Harper got caught lying about Dion's policy. They needed something big.
Harper stood up in front of a bunch of vegetables, declared himself to be a fruit, and made this flip-flop/pander. Most of the story was drowned out by the visceral and negative reaction to yet another Conservative attack ad.
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:23 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair: Dion's plan says tax replacement. He'll cut income taxes, then bring in a carbon tax. The plan is for it to be revenue neutral and most indications are that it will be. Dion's plan includes helping those affected...farmers, fishers, truckers...buy more efficient technology to help defray the costs of rising energy. He can call it a tax replacement all he wants, but the fact is that any tax that costs a producer more will also cost the consumer more. Therefore you wont save anything!! Are you really ignorant enough to beleive that the cost of goods wont skyrocket resulting in a total destruction of the Canadian economy. We are already worried about a slowdown because of American stupidity why should we add some Liberal stupidity in to the mix!!
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Wada
CKA Elite
Posts: 3355
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:34 pm
Harper Lies!
He won't do it, but he'll have an excuse for not doing it. IF, he gets elected.
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Reverend Blair
Forum Super Elite
Posts: 2043
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:39 pm
$1: Are you really ignorant enough to beleive that the cost of goods wont skyrocket resulting in a total destruction of the Canadian economy. The economists tend to favour carbon taxes and other consumption taxes over income taxes, so some pretty smart people disagree with you, stokes. They certainly aren't screaming out the shrill alarmist rhetoric that you are, at any rate. Look at it this way, if you get an income tax reduction of $1300, that should be enough to re-insulate one room of your house. New insulation, new vapour barrier, new drywall, new electrical, maybe some new plumbing if you live someplace where they put it on an outside wall. Or you can buy windows and doors. Whatever. I'm assuming, since you're apparently a Conservative, that you can do the work yourself. You guys like to present yourselves as wearing toolbelts, at any rate. So the value of your house will go up a bit and you'll save some energy. Do one room a year. It will more than pay for itself over time.
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Posts: 8157
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:47 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair: Look at it this way, if you get an income tax reduction of $1300, that should be enough to re-insulate one room of your house. New insulation, new vapour barrier, new drywall, new electrical, maybe some new plumbing if you live someplace where they put it on an outside wall. Or you can buy windows and doors. Whatever. I'm assuming, since you're apparently a Conservative, that you can do the work yourself. You guys like to present yourselves as wearing toolbelts, at any rate.
So the value of your house will go up a bit and you'll save some energy. Do one room a year. It will more than pay for itself over time. Sounds good but, any idea how this carbon tax applies to farm fuel?
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:57 pm
Of COurse I can do the work myself, but just because I am able isnt why I vote Conservative..I'll tell that story later. Anyway I am married with three kids and my wife is a stay at home mom because daycare will cost me over $1500 a month. So while I am not opposed to being more enviromentally concious I also have to balance that with the needs of my family to have a good life and be happy.
So if my grocery bill increases, my hydro bill increases, my heating costs increase while re-insulating my home is a good start, and putting solar-power panels on the roof, the initial cost plus the added "Green Shift" Tax will cause my family considerable financial distress. Does that make sense now why there is no way I can support this.
I would be moree willing if they started taking steps 10 years ago when they signed Kyoto but to try and make up a lot of ground very quickly will cause nothing but problems for a lot of hard working families.
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Reverend Blair
Forum Super Elite
Posts: 2043
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:58 pm
There's some kind of incentive for better equipment or something. The carbon sequestration thing is apparently being revived too, I think...although I hope they come up with something better than they had last time.
If you want the Conservatives out in most Saskatchewan ridings though, Robair, you're way better off voting NDP than Liberal. I think Goodale's riding will stay Liberal, but they haven't got much of a shot anywhere else. The NDP do though, there's three or four ridings where they are competitive, and the NDP support the CWB.
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Reverend Blair
Forum Super Elite
Posts: 2043
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:13 pm
$1: Anyway I am married with three kids and my wife is a stay at home mom because daycare will cost me over $1500 a month. Too bad we didn't have a national daycare program, eh? $1: So if my grocery bill increases, my hydro bill increases, my heating costs increase while re-insulating my home is a good start, and putting solar-power panels on the roof, the initial cost plus the added "Green Shift" Tax will cause my family considerable financial distress. Does that make sense now why there is no way I can support this. Your bills are going to increase anyway though. The cost of utilities is skyrocketing and it has nothing to do with carbon taxes. In fact, the carbon tax will add very little to that increase. The tax deduction will, at the very worst, leave you in the same position you would have been in anyway. It's a bigger discount than you'll get from Harper's tiny tax cut. Dion's isn't the only plan though. The NDP have a cap and trade plan that doesn't include a new tax or a tax deduction. Part of the plan is using the proceeds of the cap and trade system to help people reduce their energy consumption though, so you can save money on that.
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:38 pm
I dont see it happening, you can be a proponent all you want but it is going to take quite a bit to convince me that this isnt going to cost me anything, as I am sure as a consumer the cost of everything is going to go up very quickly as producers will pass everything on to guys like me, so it will tax the middle/ lower class beyond our threshhold to pay.
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Reverend Blair
Forum Super Elite
Posts: 2043
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:08 pm
Well, I'm not really a proponent, Stokes...I prefer the NDP plan. The thing is that the truth that would allow people to honestly compare and decide, then take appropriate action is being lost in the scare-mongering about taxes.
The reality is that something is coming and it's not going to be cheap. The longer we put it off, the more it's going to cost. We can pony up a bit now and start to change the way we do things, or we can refuse to do anything and pass the costs (much higher costs) on to the next generation.
Both the NDP and Liberal plans aim to soften the impact on the middle class. In both cases, they are revenue neutral and, even in the short term, will leave you with more money in your ass pocket than if we do nothing.
Even if you don't believe all the scientists who have made a very strong case for global warming, even if you don't believe economists like Stern who say the costs of doing nothing about global warming will cripple the world economy, you must be able to understand that we simply can't afford to keep burning fossil fuels at the rate we are.
Diesel fuel has gone up 40 cents a litre in 2008. I'm 43 and I remember when you could get a gallon (that's four litres) of diesel for less than 40 cents. So how long do you think you'll be able to sustain your lifestyle, or anything close to it, if we don't do something to reduce consumption? Not very long.
Harper has no plan though. He's basically offering a baby Bandaid for a gaping chest wound. It will save you nothing in the short term and end up costing you a lot more in the long term.
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Posts: 4914
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:24 pm
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Posts: 12398
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:49 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair: Well, I'm not really a proponent, Stokes...I prefer the NDP plan. The thing is that the truth that would allow people to honestly compare and decide, then take appropriate action is being lost in the scare-mongering about taxes.
The reality is that something is coming and it's not going to be cheap. The longer we put it off, the more it's going to cost. We can pony up a bit now and start to change the way we do things, or we can refuse to do anything and pass the costs (much higher costs) on to the next generation.
Both the NDP and Liberal plans aim to soften the impact on the middle class. In both cases, they are revenue neutral and, even in the short term, will leave you with more money in your ass pocket than if we do nothing.
Even if you don't believe all the scientists who have made a very strong case for global warming, even if you don't believe economists like Stern who say the costs of doing nothing about global warming will cripple the world economy, you must be able to understand that we simply can't afford to keep burning fossil fuels at the rate we are.
Diesel fuel has gone up 40 cents a litre in 2008. I'm 43 and I remember when you could get a gallon (that's four litres) of diesel for less than 40 cents. So how long do you think you'll be able to sustain your lifestyle, or anything close to it, if we don't do something to reduce consumption? Not very long.
Harper has no plan though. He's basically offering a baby Bandaid for a gaping chest wound. It will save you nothing in the short term and end up costing you a lot more in the long term. CO2 is not a problem, global warming is natural. Dions focus on trying to usurp nature shows how far out of touch he is with reality. Yes it's imperative to find alternative power sources but Dions plan is nothing more than a tax grab. There never has and never will be a revenue neutral tax plan. World demand for fossil fuels will continue to rise along with the costs and Dion wants to add a tax  , foolish at best and at worst it sounds more like NDP lunacy. Your gaping chest wound is about the size of a pimple on a fleas ass.
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C.M. Burns
Forum Elite
Posts: 1240
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:52 pm
Oh, come on people, do the math. 2 cents per liter over 4 years = .5 cents per liter per year reduction in price. So, for a trucker who has a 1000 liter tank, he's gonna save 5 bucks on a $1200 fill-up. His or her 40 foot trailer is carrying TVs or iPods or eggs - anywhere from 200 - 5000 units per truckload. Total savings per unit? 2.5 cents down to 0.1 cents.  Yeah... that's really gonna bring prices down. "The Canadian Trucking Alliance estimated the plan would save truckers roughly $140 million each year." StatsCan says: "The latest census (2001) indicates there are now 263,510 truck drivers in Canada" For a total fuel bill savings of $531 per driver per year - about $2 per working day. It would be great if it saved a few jobs but how many jobs should be saved by a 140 million dollar welfare plan? It's more CONservative political theater intended to mollify unthinking voters and a payoff to business at the taxpayer's expense.
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