CKA Forums
Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 5321
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:36 am
 


Yogi Yogi:
The designation of 'hero' is greatly over-used. IMO a hero is someone who runs into a burning building putting their own life at risk to save another, or someone who jumps into a river to save another person.


I completely agree, though I would suspect that people want to show appreciation for doing such a dangerous job, in order to protect society.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Boston Bruins


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 11907
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:26 am
 


The constant use of the word hero has diluted it to the point where it doesn't mean anything special these days. :(


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 53472
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:40 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
Alta_redneck Alta_redneck:
Iverson pissed me off when he tried to gain political points by blaming the Harper government for getting rid of the gun registery. :evil:


If you ask me, it was a fair comment.

The EPS knew he had an expired firearm certificate, but not what he may have owned. Perhaps if they had known he had one or more high-powered weapons, they might have used the Tactical Team instead of plainclothes officers to take down Raddatz.

According to one of the news reports I saw (CTV IIRC) one of Raddatz's neighbours told the reporter that Cst. Woodall himself knocked on doors prior to the attempt to ask if anyone knew whether or not Raddatz was a hunter and/or owned firearms.


That was also reported on CBC.

Since long guns don't have to be registered, how would the outcome have been different?

This person had no history of violence, but they still went in with 8 members all wearing body Armour, assuming there would be a weapon. The body armour even protected the Sgt. from taking serious injury to the back. The thing they didn't count on was Const. Woodall taking an immediate headshot. A gun registry would not have prevented that.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33492
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:38 am
 


Yogi Yogi:
Let's look at this tradgedy from a different angle. Why is Const. Woodall being refered to as a 'hero'? The man was doing the job he was hired to do. He had specific training & safety gear. He also had another officer with him. No way they could have forseen the outcome. Had they really been concerned they had at their disposal the even better trained & equipped swat team.

Keeping that in mind then, why is not Matyam Ashtiani who was killed while working at the gasbar in Calgary not being refered to as a hero? She certainly didn't have the training that law enforcement people get and she certainly wasn't issued protective gear. And like our officers she had a police force at her disposal if she had thought it warranted. She too is a highly educated immigrant to Canada. She too leaves behind a spouse & young son.



http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/charges-pendi ... -1.2415083


Bottom line is that both of these incidents are tradgedies. Those injured and killed were doing their jobs. Why, in public opinion are law emforcement people killed or injured on the job 'heroes' while everyone else is just thought of and referred to as an unfortunate statistic?

The designation of 'hero' is greatly over-used. IMO a hero is someone who runs into a burning building putting their own life at risk to save another, or someone who jumps into a river to save another person.



I've made much the same argument, Yogi, but people want their heroes. There are plenty of jobs that are far more dangerous than police, but the people who work in them aren't called heroes. They take on the risks just like cops.

But good cops doing their jobs still deserve to be honored or appreciated. It's a tough job and a very important one. The cops that really deserve to be honored are the ones that know how to reach out to the community, know how to humanize the job.

I would say tho that if this officer had charged the house after shots were already fired, that's pretty heroic, I would say.


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 65472
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:13 am
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
This person had no history of violence, but they still went in with 8 members all wearing body Armour, assuming there would be a weapon. The body armour even protected the Sgt. from taking serious injury to the back. The thing they didn't count on was Const. Woodall taking an immediate headshot. A gun registry would not have prevented that.


A polite knock on the door could have prevented it, too. :idea:

The circular logic that law enforcement uses in cases like this is dumbfounding:

$1:
1. The guy we're looking at is paranoid and he's deluded thinking that the government is out to get him by spying on him and using a SWAT team to kill him.

2. Therefore we need to spy on him and then use a SWAT team to kill him.

3. Because we spied on him and used a SWAT team to kill him he killed a police officer because he was prepared to do so as part of #1.

4. He killed a police officer because he was prepared to fight a SWAT team that was going in to kill him and that justifies our use of a SWAT team to kill him.


My conclusions from this are:

Raddatz was right and the police proved him right. (He's also dead)

The police have also underlined to any other anti-government types that Norman Raddatz was ill prepared and I expect them to be better prepared in case the SWAT team comes to kill them, too.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 23084
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:36 am
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Alta_redneck Alta_redneck:
Iverson pissed me off when he tried to gain political points by blaming the Harper government for getting rid of the gun registery. :evil:


If you ask me, it was a fair comment.

The EPS knew he had an expired firearm certificate, but not what he may have owned. Perhaps if they had known he had one or more high-powered weapons, they might have used the Tactical Team instead of plainclothes officers to take down Raddatz.

According to one of the news reports I saw (CTV IIRC) one of Raddatz's neighbours told the reporter that Cst. Woodall himself knocked on doors prior to the attempt to ask if anyone knew whether or not Raddatz was a hunter and/or owned firearms.


That was also reported on CBC.

Since long guns don't have to be registered, how would the outcome have been different?

This person had no history of violence, but they still went in with 8 members all wearing body Armour, assuming there would be a weapon. The body armour even protected the Sgt. from taking serious injury to the back. The thing they didn't count on was Const. Woodall taking an immediate headshot. A gun registry would not have prevented that.



Under the old registry, all firearms were supposed to be registered, so theoretically, the police would have known exactly what weapons Taddatz may have had.

And I didn't say it would have prevented it, I said they may have used more experienced and/or better equipped police officers than somebody from the Hate Crimes unit had they known what weapons Raddatz owned.


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 53472
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:56 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
bootlegga bootlegga:

If you ask me, it was a fair comment.

The EPS knew he had an expired firearm certificate, but not what he may have owned. Perhaps if they had known he had one or more high-powered weapons, they might have used the Tactical Team instead of plainclothes officers to take down Raddatz.

According to one of the news reports I saw (CTV IIRC) one of Raddatz's neighbours told the reporter that Cst. Woodall himself knocked on doors prior to the attempt to ask if anyone knew whether or not Raddatz was a hunter and/or owned firearms.


That was also reported on CBC.

Since long guns don't have to be registered, how would the outcome have been different?

This person had no history of violence, but they still went in with 8 members all wearing body Armour, assuming there would be a weapon. The body armour even protected the Sgt. from taking serious injury to the back. The thing they didn't count on was Const. Woodall taking an immediate headshot. A gun registry would not have prevented that.



Under the old registry, all firearms were supposed to be registered, so theoretically, the police would have known exactly what weapons Taddatz may have had.

And I didn't say it would have prevented it, I said they may have used more experienced and/or better equipped police officers than somebody from the Hate Crimes unit had they known what weapons Raddatz owned.


But that's still the same argument we had while there was a registry! And even though the registry is gone, cops will still assume there are weapons involved and will still assume that criminals don't register their weapons!

They did go in using the best of their abilities, and wearing the best equipment that they had, and assuming there would be weapons on the premises. That the homeowner/Stormfront member would react violently would not have been contained in a gun registry!


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 8851
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:00 am
 


Under the old registry, all firearms were supposed to be registered, so theoretically, the police would have known exactly what weapons Taddatz may have had.


And theoritically no one would ever be in possession of a 'black market' firearm!


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33691
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:01 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:


Under the old registry, all firearms were supposed to be registered, so theoretically, the police would have known exactly what weapons Taddatz may have had.

And I didn't say it would have prevented it, I said they may have used more experienced and/or better equipped police officers than somebody from the Hate Crimes unit had they known what weapons Raddatz owned.



All this just gets defeated so easily by one non registered illegal weapon.

Then the cops are screwed because they are thinking there are no guns.



They had full body armour.

What do you want, some pre game RPGs or something ?


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 65472
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:09 am
 


martin14 martin14:
(The SWAT team) had full body armour.


It mostly makes them reckless and overconfident. They get what some professionals call "Superman Syndrome" where they think they're invincible.

The prevalence of body armor is also why a growing number of so-called paranoid types practice for head shots instead of the more traditional CoM.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 42160
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:12 am
 


Yogi Yogi:
Under the old registry, all firearms were supposed to be registered, so theoretically, the police would have known exactly what weapons Taddatz may have had.


And theoritically no one would ever be in possession of a 'black market' firearm!


'Freemen of the Land' types don't usually ascribe to government regulations.....or conventional definitions of sanity


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 53472
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:01 am
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
This person had no history of violence, but they still went in with 8 members all wearing body Armour, assuming there would be a weapon. The body armour even protected the Sgt. from taking serious injury to the back. The thing they didn't count on was Const. Woodall taking an immediate headshot. A gun registry would not have prevented that.


A polite knock on the door could have prevented it, too. :idea:

The circular logic that law enforcement uses in cases like this is dumbfounding:

$1:
1. The guy we're looking at is paranoid and he's deluded thinking that the government is out to get him by spying on him and using a SWAT team to kill him.

2. Therefore we need to spy on him and then use a SWAT team to kill him.

3. Because we spied on him and used a SWAT team to kill him he killed a police officer because he was prepared to do so as part of #1.

4. He killed a police officer because he was prepared to fight a SWAT team that was going in to kill him and that justifies our use of a SWAT team to kill him.


My conclusions from this are:

Raddatz was right and the police proved him right. (He's also dead)

The police have also underlined to any other anti-government types that Norman Raddatz was ill prepared and I expect them to be better prepared in case the SWAT team comes to kill them, too.


$1:
Edmonton police shooter’s Facebook page filled with rants about ‘pigs,’ ‘sodomites’ and tax ‘pirates’

...
Police have said there were no indication Raddatz was part of the Freemen-on-the-Land movement, an affiliation of extremists considered by the FBI to be a domestic terrorist movement and a serious threat to law enforcement.

But posts on Raddatz’s page clearly espouse views that reflect the Freemen movement and the broader sovereign citizen ideology in which people believe they are exempt from the law unless they consent to be governed by it.
...


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... ebook-page


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Vancouver Canucks
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 9445
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:44 am
 


Yogi Yogi:
Let's look at this tradgedy from a different angle. Why is Const. Woodall being refered to as a 'hero'? The man was doing the job he was hired to do. He had specific training & safety gear. He also had another officer with him. No way they could have forseen the outcome. Had they really been concerned they had at their disposal the even better trained & equipped swat team.

The designation of 'hero' is greatly over-used. IMO a hero is someone who runs into a burning building putting their own life at risk to save another, or someone who jumps into a river to save another person.

Says the arm chair quarterback who's never risked his life putting on a uniform. FTR I haven't but I'm not second guessing the actions of Const Woodall or EPS that night because I wasn't there, but apparently you were. :roll:


Attachments:
rzqinz4K.jpg
rzqinz4K.jpg [ 103.58 KiB | Viewed 66 times ]
Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 23084
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:04 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Under the old registry, all firearms were supposed to be registered, so theoretically, the police would have known exactly what weapons Taddatz may have had.

And I didn't say it would have prevented it, I said they may have used more experienced and/or better equipped police officers than somebody from the Hate Crimes unit had they known what weapons Raddatz owned.


But that's still the same argument we had while there was a registry! And even though the registry is gone, cops will still assume there are weapons involved and will still assume that criminals don't register their weapons!

They did go in using the best of their abilities, and wearing the best equipment that they had, and assuming there would be weapons on the premises. That the homeowner/Stormfront member would react violently would not have been contained in a gun registry!


That's just it - the EPS didn't go in to the best of their abilities.

Sure, they brought eight officers with body armour, but lots of Edmonton cops wear body armour as a matter of course. The fact is they didn't deploy the Tactical Team until AFTER the shooting started, so no matter how you slice it, they didn't really bring their 'A' game - especially if initial reports are correct and the eight officers didn't even fire back at Raddatz.

I know it's a big if, but IF they had definitively known what weapon(s) he had, they might have backed off and called for the Tactical Team to breach, instead of using regular officers.

Sure, a Tactical Team officer may still have been killed in the breach, but given their better equipment (included Kevlar-lined helmuts) and training, they would have had a better chance of survival.

Call me crazy, but if police are confronted by an armed nutjob, I want them to use every advantage they have to minimize civilian and police casualties.


Offline
CKA Moderator
CKA Moderator
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 53472
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:09 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
- especially if initial reports are correct and the eight officers didn't even fire back at Raddatz.


I don't think that is correct. The interview I heard with the WWII vet across the street who nearly took a round in the chest said that the cops were firing back. And reloading. And firing some more.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... -1.3106912


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests




 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.