[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Me, too.

I appreciate that, but colour me surprised! I would have thought with your background you'd hold the 'hang em high' opinion.

[BartSimpson]

At first I did. I can change my opinions as I obtain new information and in this case I have.

At this point I do not believe Manning or Snowden violated their oaths, to the contrary, I believe they upheld their oaths far better than have their superiors.

Yes, this is me defending a gay soldier and a liberal hipster. Must be a certain sign of the Apocalypse!

[DrCaleb]

I try to be open minded about my opinions and beliefs, and try to change as new information accumulates. Good on you!

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

At this point I do not believe Manning or Snowden violated their oaths, to the contrary, I believe they upheld their oaths far better than have their superiors.

I think too that some people forget that 'government' is a subset of 'country', and just because something is bad for 'government' does not mean it's bad for the 'country'.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

At this point I do not believe Manning or Snowden violated their oaths, to the contrary, I believe they upheld their oaths far better than have their superiors.

I think too that some people forget that 'government' is a subset of 'country', and just because something is bad for 'government' does not mean it's bad for the 'country'.

Exactly. That goes to the heart of the American perspective that the government serves the people and not the other way around.

[bambu]

Far too long a sentence for this mixed up gay kid who got caught up in the WikiLeaks "The People have a right to know" protest.

Huckabee and other US politicians want to put Julian Assange in their death chamber.

All Lynndie England did was pose for photographs...she was tossed in prison too.

[Unsound]

bambu bambu:

Far too long a sentence for this mixed up gay kid who got caught up in the WikiLeaks "The People have a right to know" protest.

Huckabee and other US politicians want to put Julian Assange in their death chamber.

All Lynndie England did was pose for photographs...she was tossed in prison too.

Ur kind of a fritada aren't you?

[BartSimpson]

Unsound Unsound:

bambu bambu:

Far too long a sentence for this mixed up gay kid who got caught up in the WikiLeaks "The People have a right to know" protest.

Huckabee and other US politicians want to put Julian Assange in their death chamber.

All Lynndie England did was pose for photographs...she was tossed in prison too.

Ur kind of a fritada aren't you?

Actually, he's been pretty rational with me. He'd cited a questionable resource recently and was prompt in editing the reference.

Granted, he gravitates to some fringe topics *but* I've observed he's typically diligent in backing up his opinions with solid references.

In the realm of forum behavior he's pretty much a good citizen by that standard.

[xerxes]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

At first I did. I can change my opinions as I obtain new information and in this case I have.

At this point I do not believe Manning or Snowden violated their oaths, to the contrary, I believe they upheld their oaths far better than have their superiors.

Yes, this is me defending a gay soldier and a liberal hipster. Must be a certain sign of the Apocalypse!

In that case I need to start drinking more.

[BartSimpson]

xerxes xerxes:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

At first I did. I can change my opinions as I obtain new information and in this case I have.

At this point I do not believe Manning or Snowden violated their oaths, to the contrary, I believe they upheld their oaths far better than have their superiors.

Yes, this is me defending a gay soldier and a liberal hipster. Must be a certain sign of the Apocalypse!

In that case I need to start drinking more.

May I join you?

[xerxes]

Absolutely.

[bambu]

Unsound Unsound:

bambu bambu:

Far too long a sentence for this mixed up gay kid who got caught up in the WikiLeaks "The People have a right to know" protest.

Huckabee and other US politicians want to put Julian Assange in their death chamber.

All Lynndie England did was pose for photographs...she was tossed in prison too.

Ur kind of a fritada aren't you?

I had to look up 'fritada'

To me, the above are all relative.

[Unsound]

bambu bambu:

I had to look up 'fritada'

I just heard it used this way a little while ago, been dying to try it out. Thanks for the opportunity.

[Unsound]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Actually, he's been pretty rational with me. He'd cited a questionable resource recently and was prompt in editing the reference.

Granted, he gravitates to some fringe topics *but* I've observed he's typically diligent in backing up his opinions with solid references.

In the realm of forum behavior he's pretty much a good citizen by that standard.

Been a few comments that just kinda got my head shaking. "All Lynndie England did was pose for photographs." or in another thread something about investing money in real estate instead of kids because the kids might do something stupid or dangerous? ANd the whole "bambu ilk" thing...

Not saying I hate the guy or anything, but the head-shaking and frowning when I read his posts has my wife thinking I'm having a medical emergency at times...

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I will come to his defence. He swore an oath to defend his country, and in court he swore that he thought he was doing just that. But what he did also embarrassed his government.

I do not believe you can commit a war crime, then classify the details as 'secret' so that it can never be procecuted. And I'm not just speaking about that helo incident Thanos. That may have been his motivation, but the documents he released to the press through Wikileaks (NOT to the public) show things like child prostitution, bribery of forigen officials, Blackmail, Smuggling and Espionage. As these things were brought to light, many people felt the outrage that they happened, and also that they were 'classified' to protect the US government.

I applaud Manning, because he did what he thought was right, even knowing the concequences. And that means he will have to serve 11 years before he can be repeatedly be denied parole for another 24 years. Because, let's face it, that's what's going to happen.

With all these 10,000 documents released has a single person been indited on a single crime? Bradley Manning, Edward Snowdon, John Kiriakou, William Edward Binney, Thomas Drake - all these men leaked documents that uncover serious crimes and has anyone besides them faced any sort of concequence?

William Calley served 3 and a half years house arrest for the Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam, in which 304 civillians were killed. Right now, Robert Bales is on trial for killing 16 civillians in Afghanistan and if he gets the maximum sentence - life, he'll be eligible for parole in 10 years.

James Clapper purjured himself to the Senate Intelligence Committee saying that the NSA did not spy on it's citizens, then a few days later Edward Snowden showed everyone that they really do. Is he on trial? Yet Snowdon must fear for his life. The same day the NSA documents came to light, a 16 year old American boy was killed in a drone strike overseas authorized by the President, although the boy never had a trial. Will there be even a hearing into this murder?

Some say the release of those diplomatic documents precipitated the Arab Spring. Is not overthrowing dictators a worthy result?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pu ... nformation

As Noam Chomsky said in a speech last weekend:

Noam Chomsky Noam Chomsky:

The U.S. behaves nothing like a democracy

. . .

Well, another important feature of RECD is that the public must be kept in the dark about what is happening to them. The “herd” must remain “bewildered”. The reasons were explained lucidly by the professor of the science of government at Harvard – that’s the official name – another respected liberal figure, Samuel Huntington. As he pointed out, “power remains strong when it remains in the dark. Exposed to sunlight, it begins to evaporate”. Bradley Manning is facing a life in prison for failure to comprehend this scientific principle. Now Edward Snowden as well. And it works pretty well. If you take a look at polls, it reveals how well it works. So for example, recent polls pretty consistently reveal that Republicans are preferred to Democrats on most issues and crucially on the issues in which the public opposes the policies of the Republicans and favors the policies of the Democrats. One striking example of this is that majorities say that they favor the Republicans on tax policy, while the same majorities oppose those policies. This runs across the board.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/17/chomsky ... democracy/

I commend Mr. Manning for sacrificing the rest of his life to shine a little light, however brief, on the 'herd'.

Bravery takes many forms and it took a lot of it to stand up to his own government. Lord knows lots of people don't have the courage to and hide behind the old "I was just following orders" line of BS.

I'd rep if I could!