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Lemmy
CKA Uber
Posts: 12349
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:54 am
Gunnair Gunnair: I think it comes down to the difference between due process and potential execution to no process and summary execution. I'm not sure what more you need for due process when we have video of the incident and an remorseless explanation of the incident, also on video, by its perpetrator.
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Posts: 23565
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:58 am
Lemmy Lemmy: Gunnair Gunnair: I think it comes down to the difference between due process and potential execution to no process and summary execution. I'm not sure what more you need for due process when we have video of the incident and an remorseless explanation of the incident, also on video, by its perpetrator. We have laws and due process irrespective of the overwhelming or underwhelming evidence. Emotive kneejerkism to these types of incidents ought to be beneath you, no?
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Lemmy
CKA Uber
Posts: 12349
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:23 am
Gunnair Gunnair: We have laws and due process irrespective of the overwhelming or underwhelming evidence. Emotive kneejerkism to these types of incidents ought to be beneath you, no? In most cases I'd likely grant you that. But I don't know that this case requires a whole of legal wrangling to pronounce guilt.
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Posts: 23565
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:35 am
Lemmy Lemmy: Gunnair Gunnair: We have laws and due process irrespective of the overwhelming or underwhelming evidence. Emotive kneejerkism to these types of incidents ought to be beneath you, no? In most cases I'd likely grant you that. But I don't know that this case requires a whole of legal wrangling to pronounce guilt. Of course it does and you know it. A highly educated fellow such as yourself stooping to this kind of emotive kneejerkism is frankly surprising and disappointing. We see the hounds baying for the 5 cent solution every time some heinous crime occurs happy to throw rights of the accused and due process out the window on an emotive whim. Oddly, the same will bay for their rights for say, pot smoking, freedom of speech, freedom of religion when it suits them. Funny that, eh?
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Posts: 18770
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:50 am
For all those who are anti-capital punishment. Why exactly are you? The people put to death are not. They chose to be Judge, Jury and Executioner of their victim(s). In this case the two chose to attack and kill an unarmed man walking down the street for the reason that he was a soilder. Exactly when was he given a fair trial? At least these two will be given one and a chance to live in prison for the rest of their lives.
Those who feel that the criminal who wantingly kills another does not deserve death forgets that they also could have been the victim and that these killers chose the death sentence for another just because they felt like giving it. To say that it lowers us to their level is absured. We as a society have laws and for those that break the laws there is punishment. If you break a law in a place that has the death penelty and you commit a crime that warrants, under the law, a death penelty then you are to blame not society or the law.
Those who say the death penalty is not a deterant may or may not be correct. What the death penalty is, is a means to ensure the continued safety and well being of society by ensuring that the most violent and bloodthirsty of criminals never get a chance to kill again. By putting a person in jail for life does not mean that society is safe. For these killers can still strike at other inmates, guards and will always have the possiblity of escape and in some cases parole. To claim that locking away these wanton killers is the most humane thing are at best naive. For it gives the killers time to kill again and continues to put society in harms way.
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Posts: 42160
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:05 am
$1: For these killers can still strike at other inmates, guards and will always have the possiblity of escape and in some cases parole.
The only way to ensure the safety of others is to lock the perps away 24/7 in individual cells....but then some would whine that that was cruel and unusual punishment.
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Posts: 23565
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:12 am
stratos stratos: For all those who are anti-capital punishment. Why exactly are you? The people put to death are not. They chose to be Judge, Jury and Executioner of their victim(s). In this case the two chose to attack and kill an unarmed man walking down the street for the reason that he was a soilder. Exactly when was he given a fair trial? At least these two will be given one and a chance to live in prison for the rest of their lives.
Those who feel that the criminal who wantingly kills another does not deserve death forgets that they also could have been the victim and that these killers chose the death sentence for another just because they felt like giving it. To say that it lowers us to their level is absured. We as a society have laws and for those that break the laws there is punishment. If you break a law in a place that has the death penelty and you commit a crime that warrants, under the law, a death penelty then you are to blame not society or the law.
Those who say the death penalty is not a deterant may or may not be correct. What the death penalty is, is a means to ensure the continued safety and well being of society by ensuring that the most violent and bloodthirsty of criminals never get a chance to kill again. By putting a person in jail for life does not mean that society is safe. For these killers can still strike at other inmates, guards and will always have the possiblity of escape and in some cases parole. To claim that locking away these wanton killers is the most humane thing are at best naive. For it gives the killers time to kill again and continues to put society in harms way. Are you noting a lot of anti-capital punishment here other than Andy?
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Posts: 35270
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:22 am
Justice is not an exact science and even today, we get it wrong sometimes. The problem with capital punishment is where to draw the line. Do you put it where everybody wonders why some murderers don't get executed but end up spending their life in jail, or where you run the risk of executing innocent people?
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Posts: 42160
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:26 am
In a situation where there is some question of guilt a trial is necessary. There was no question here. Due process is used to ensure no errors are made and the investigation is thorough
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Posts: 18770
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:30 am
$1: Are you noting a lot of anti-capital punishment here other than Andy?
I'm not targeting anyone in particular, my comment is directed at any and all that are anti-capital punishment. This truly is my conviction about wanton killers and how, as a society, we should deal with them.
Last edited by stratos on Fri May 24, 2013 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Posts: 18770
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:31 am
$1: The only way to ensure the safety of others is to lock the perps away 24/7 in individual cells....but then some would whine that that was cruel and unusual punishment.
This still alows them to target the guards while in lockdown.
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Lemmy
CKA Uber
Posts: 12349
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:34 am
Gunnair Gunnair: Of course it does and you know it. A highly educated fellow such as yourself stooping to this kind of emotive kneejerkism is frankly surprising and disappointing.
We see the hounds baying for the 5 cent solution every time some heinous crime occurs happy to throw rights of the accused and due process out the window on an emotive whim. Oddly, the same will bay for their rights for say, pot smoking, freedom of speech, freedom of religion when it suits them.
Funny that, eh? Sure, there's some of that. It's a perfectly natural reaction to the video I've seen. But I'm not sure that the emotive whim isn't the most just. Presume we follow the typical path of legal wrangling in a capital case. We wait 3 years to actually get a trial. We spend 6 weeks holding the trial, enduring the pain and media circus that will surround it. We get to listen to whatever stretch of reality the defense cooks up to mitigate the events we've seen. Then presume we get a guilty verdict. We'll endure a seemingly endless series of appeals and tests of justice. Finally, a decade from now and a gazillion dollars later an execution is performed. Is that a preferable scenario to the quicker path to justice I'm suggesting? The end result's the same, save the time and money wasted...and extra pain-endurance we've put the victim's family through. I'm not saying my solution is 100% perfect. But the alternative, as I've described above, is at least as imperfect as just shooting the fuckers.
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Posts: 23565
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:44 am
Lemmy Lemmy: Gunnair Gunnair: Of course it does and you know it. A highly educated fellow such as yourself stooping to this kind of emotive kneejerkism is frankly surprising and disappointing.
We see the hounds baying for the 5 cent solution every time some heinous crime occurs happy to throw rights of the accused and due process out the window on an emotive whim. Oddly, the same will bay for their rights for say, pot smoking, freedom of speech, freedom of religion when it suits them.
Funny that, eh? Sure, there's some of that. It's a perfectly natural reaction to the video I've seen. But I'm not sure that the emotive whim isn't the most just. Presume we follow the typical path of legal wrangling in a capital case. We wait 3 years to actually get a trial. We spend 6 weeks holding the trial, enduring the pain and media circus that will surround it. We get to listen to whatever stretch of reality the defense cooks up to mitigate the events we've seen. Then presume we get a guilty verdict. We'll endure a seemingly endless series of appeals and tests of justice. Finally, a decade from now and a gazillion dollars later an execution is performed. Is that a preferable scenario to the quicker path to justice I'm suggesting? The end result's the same, save the time and money wasted...and extra pain-endurance we've put the victim's family through. I'm not saying my solution is 100% perfect. But the alternative, as I've described above, is at least as imperfect as just shooting the fuckers. I think you're forgetting your original assertion here, which was summary conviction and execution, Lemmy. $1: Legal rights and the justice system are for human beings. Anyone who'd perpetrate such an act doesn't qualify. Shoot, kill, dispose of, move on. I suspect, since I'm not buying your line that the mob should have the ability to pick and choose who gets due process based on their emotive whim, that we will have to agree to disagree.
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Lemmy
CKA Uber
Posts: 12349
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:54 am
Gunnair Gunnair: I think you're forgetting your original assertion here, which was summary conviction and execution, Lemmy. That was, as you called it, an emotive whim. Gunnair Gunnair: I suspect, since I'm not buying your line that the mob should have the ability to pick and choose who gets due process based on their emotive whim, that we will have to agree to disagree. Our disagreement, I think, is more about what constitutes a due process, given the video evidence we have of this event.
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andyt
CKA Uber
Posts: 33492
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:37 am
stratos stratos: For all those who are anti-capital punishment. Why exactly are you? The people put to death are not. They chose to be Judge, Jury and Executioner of their victim(s). In this case the two chose to attack and kill an unarmed man walking down the street for the reason that he was a soilder. Exactly when was he given a fair trial? At least these two will be given one and a chance to live in prison for the rest of their lives.
Those who feel that the criminal who wantingly kills another does not deserve death forgets that they also could have been the victim and that these killers chose the death sentence for another just because they felt like giving it. To say that it lowers us to their level is absured. We as a society have laws and for those that break the laws there is punishment. If you break a law in a place that has the death penelty and you commit a crime that warrants, under the law, a death penelty then you are to blame not society or the law.
Those who say the death penalty is not a deterant may or may not be correct. What the death penalty is, is a means to ensure the continued safety and well being of society by ensuring that the most violent and bloodthirsty of criminals never get a chance to kill again. By putting a person in jail for life does not mean that society is safe. For these killers can still strike at other inmates, guards and will always have the possiblity of escape and in some cases parole. To claim that locking away these wanton killers is the most humane thing are at best naive. For it gives the killers time to kill again and continues to put society in harms way. Two things, one of which you might get, one you probably won't: 1. putting an innocent person to death. That's why the Illinois governor commuted all death sentences in this state - he came to see that it's just too easy to execute an innocent person. Too many people have been found innocent after spending time on death row. 2. Makes us killers, same as them, and so coarsens our society and devalues life.
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